Do political beliefs override everything? What's your opinion?

[sophia]

This is a question I have been pondering for a long time now, because in my personal life the politics of the people I interact with turn out to be incredibly important in determining how 'close' I can get to the people concerned (family members excepted).

In another thread, I responded to some comments Polly made as follows:

Quote from: Polly on August 05, 2006, 03:58:09 pm
"People from the same environment naturally bond together and have affection for each other because coming from the same environment they can understand and relate to each other, as they are likely to share the same history, background, fear, dreams and pathos etc.  They instinctively know why a fellow being behaves as he does."

My response:
"I think it depends on how broadly one defines 'the same environment'. For instance, I often find it impossible to interact meaningfully with other ex-South Africans because of their bigotry and racism. However, the sorts of people I relate to best of all are ex-South Africans who have had a similar level of education to my own and how have similar 'politics'.

And, just now, I was reading a BBC news article about Cuba - here are some excerpts:

Castro supporter: 'I oppose US aggression'

....

Andres Gomez is the director of the Marxist online publication Areito Digital and one of the founders of the Antonio Maceo Brigade, a pro-Castro Cuban-American group established in 1977.

Here, he explains why he, coming from an anti-Castro family of Cuban exiles, decided to support the communist government....

I became aware of the Cuban situation and fully understood the struggle for justice and sovereignty. I ended up being a supporter of the Revolution.

How did I change my mind? Well, reading a lot about Cuba's history and Fidel Castro, and scrutinising reality.

There are people here in Miami for whom money seems to be all. Not for me - I have followed the dictates of my conscience.

It's not an easy task to be an outspoken Cuba supporter in Florida. I have had a difficult time because the anti-Castro lobby is very strong over here. However, once I made the decision, I kept on going....

I don't speak about politics when I'm with many of my anti-Castro relatives. We have an excellent relationship - they really love me as a person. However, some family members completely ignore me - they have put politics above feelings.

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4789052.stm?ls

So, I was just wondering about the rest of you. I suspect that most people either don't place as much importance on politics as do people who came from conflict-ridden societies and who actively studied (to try to understand) the situation they found themselves living in. Do you tend to make friends with people who have vastly different political views to your own? Are people's political views completely irrelevant in your interactions? I am really interested because this issue affects my personal life so much.

[The Statutory Ape]

I have three close friends, all the others are more or less aquaintances.  While all three are more or less 'libritarian' they all have variously differing political views.  My exgirlfriend was sort of a middlest too I guess, respecting the conservative opinions of her family yet at the same time having more liberal view points of her own.  I guess I get along better with people who are not so strongly inclined in one direction or another.

[Drive By]

i hate politics it is so boring. GO LAMONT GO BABY

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[Polly]

None of my friends have much interest in politics and  I sound very much like a radical these days when I talk to them telling them about the gross injustice of the war in Iraq and now coming to Iran and of course the financial hollowness of the US.  They usually look at me incredulously and I have to apologise for being so worked up.  But we are still friends.

My closest friend is actually a Taiwanese who like many others has been brainwashed about America being right, beautiful and virtuous, and China being dark, sinister, wicked and just plain BAD EGG.  And somehow this political view has been one of the dividing factors for her marriage.  I imagine when you debate with a loved one about something that they hold very dear to their heart, it is very easy to mix up merits of the argument with "you are so wrong and dumb, and I am right".  I also read somewhere that men cannot deal with differing opinion of a woman emotionally.  If she disagrees with him, he thinks she doesn't love him any more  .   

My awareness of the existence at all of politics was not initiated until the invasion of Iraq.  I still remember I was talking with my ex bf on the phone and he told me to switch on the telly as his colleague alerted him.  Seeing the Twin Tower collapse, I remember I did not even know what to think.   

[The Statutory Ape]

I also read somewhere that men cannot deal with differing opinion of a woman emotionally.  If she disagrees with him, he thinks she doesn't love him any more  .

I've had the opposite experience.  Most of the women in my life have been angry with me because they feel that my argumentativeness is due to a lack of respect for their intelligence.  I don't usually take it personally myself and enjoy it more than anything.

[Polly]

If this offends anybody I apologize sincerely.

I think pleasure and a good life is inherently more appealing to a lot of us than finding the truth.  For the quest for truth means we have to destroy our world view every once in a while, which has been built up with toil in the first place and is often the foundation of our life.  We have to swallow the humiliation, accept we are wrong, and go on to build another view which may also have to be destroyed after a while.   ( I know it because I have done it numerous times).  It's both hard work and ego-bruising and we really can't blame anyone for not having the stomach for it. 

[Drive By]

"(t)he class which has the means of material production at its disposal has control at the same time over the means of mental production."  This is not done through conspiracy, but as a dominant and pervasive viewpoint,  Because it controls the means of production, the ruling class is able to dominate (seemingly) non economic institutions as well.  Through influence (if not outright control) over key institutions such as the government, media, foundations and higher education the viewpoint of economic elites becomes the widely accepted view of the society.  This viewpoint, of course, emphasizes maintaining the status quo. 

The oppressed class, those who do not control the means of production, normally internalize these elite ideologies. However, under certain conditions, the oppressed class can generate and widely internalize ideologies that undermine the power of the dominant class.

[Drive By]

or to quote rage against the machine.

This time the bullet cold rocked ya
A yellow ribbon instead of a swastika
Nothin' proper about ya propaganda
Fools follow rules when the set commands ya
Said it was blue
When ya blood was read
That's how ya got a bullet blasted through ya head

Blasted through ya head
Blasted through ya head

I give a shout out to the living dead
Who stood and watched as the feds cold centralized
So serene on the screen
You were mesmerised
Cellular phones soundin' a death tone
Corporations cold
Turn ya to stone before ya realise
They load the clip in omnicolour
Said they pack the 9, they fire it at prime time
Sleeping gas, every home was like Alcatraz
And mutha fuckas lost their minds

Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high

Run it!

Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high

Checka, checka, check it out
They load the clip in omnicolour
Said they pack the 9, they fire it at prime time
Sleeping gas, every home was like Alcatraz
And mutha fuckas lost their minds

No escape from the mass mind rape
Play it again jack and then rewind the tape
And then play it again and again and again
Until ya mind is locked in
Believin' all the lies that they're tellin' ya
Buyin' all the products that they're sellin' ya
They say jump and ya say how high
Ya brain-dead
Ya gotta fuckin' bullet in ya head

Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high

Uggh! Yeah! Yea!

Ya standin' in line
Believin' the lies
Ya bowin' down to the flag
Ya gotta bullet in ya head

Ya standin' in line
Believin' the lies
Ya bowin' down to the flag
Ya gotta bullet in ya head

A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head
A bullet in ya head!
A bullet in ya head!
A bullet in ya head!
A bullet in ya head!
A bullet in ya head!
A bullet in ya head!
A bullet in ya head!
Ya gotta bullet in ya fuckin' head!

[The Smoking Man]

Oh, you just like that 'cuz it says Drive-By.

 

I'm kinda partial to War Pigs by Black Sabbath myself. But then I was alway an optimist.

Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerers of death's construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds.
Oh lord, yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away.
They only started the war.
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah.

Time will tell on their power minds,
making war just for fun.
Treating people just like pawns in chess,
wait till their judgement day comes, yeah.

Now in darkness world stops turning,
ashes where the bodies burning.
No more War Pigs have the power,
Hand of God has struck the hour.
Day of judgement, God is calling,
on their knees the war pigs crawling.
Begging mercies for their sins,
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings.
Oh lord, yeah!

[Drive By]

Sinead O'Connor Black Boys On Mopeds lyrics

Margareth Thatcher on TV
Shocked by the deaths that took place in Beijing
It seems strange that she should be offended
The same orders are given by her
I've said this before now
You said I was childish and you'll say it now
Remember what I told you
If they hated me they will hate you
England's not the mythical land of Madame George and roses
It's the home of police who kill black boys on mopeds
And I love my boy and that's why I'm leaving
I don't want him to be aware that there's
Any such thing as grieving
Young mother down at Smithfield
5 am, looking for food for her kids
In her arms she holds three cold babies
And the first word that they learned was please
These are dangerous days
To say what you feel is to dig your own grave
Remember what I told you
If you were of the world they would love you
England's not the mythical land of Madame George and roses
It's the home of police who kill blacks boys on mopeds
And I love my boy and that's why I'm leaving
I don't want him to be aware that there's
Any such thing as grieving.
 

[The Statutory Ape]

I Want To Conquer The World
-Bad Religion-

Hey brother Christian with your high and mighty errand
Your actions speak so loud I can't hear a word you're saying
Hey sister bleeding-heart with all of your compassion
Your labors soothe the hurt but can't assuage temptation
Hey man of science with your perfect rules of measure
Can you improve this place with the data that you gather?
Hey mother-mercy can your loins bear fruit forever?
Is your fecundity a trammel or a treasure?
And I want to conquer the world
Give all the idiots a brand new religion
Put an end to poverty, uncleanliness, and toil
Promote equality in all of my decisions
With a quick wink of the eye and a "God you must be joking!"
Hey mister diplomat with your worldly aspirations
Did you see your children cry when you left them at the station?
Hey moral soldier you've got righteous proclamations
And precious tomes to fuel your pulpy conflagrations
And I want to conquer the world
Give all the idiots a brand new religion
Put an end to poverty, uncleanliness, and toil
Promote equality in all of my decisions
I want to conquer the world
Expose the culprits and feed them to the children
Do away with air pollution and then I'll save the whales
We'll have peace on earth and global communion
I want to conquer the world
I want to conquer the world
I want to conquer the world
I want to conquer the world

Maybe I like that one because I'm American....

[The Smoking Man]

Then there's the one created by the guy who was banned for saying the world knew them better than Jesus.

Now this song is banned for Chldren to sing in choirs:

Imagine
John Lennon

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Imagine ... killed so tha someone else could become famous.

Imagine a world without this song.

[sophia]

Well, thank you all - what a refuge this little hangout on the Internet is. I've been having a tough time in the 'real' world of late - getting into all sorts of futile discussions-turning-into-arguments with the few people I socialise with at work. This stuff in the ME has been really getting at me, and I've felt the need to try to get people to think... bad move. I have to learn to shut up - everyone gets angry with me; they just don't want to question. They think I'm a lunatic.

Their advice: 'Stop watching the news', 'Stop going on the Internet, you can't trust that stuff anyway - they lie'. It is such an insult - as if I can't read critically, as if that is not what I have been training myself to do for over twenty years now! As if I have not experienced anything of life, and can't tell truth from lies. (Sorry everyone, I'm going to vent a bit - stop reading if it's going to annoy you  )

For a few months now now, I have been reading these blogs:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
http://dailywarnews.blogspot.com/

Well, I just don't see the lies. The first blog is an account, by a very articulate and intelligent young woman, of daily life in Baghdad - it's quite famous; you've probably all read it. Do you think it's lies?

The second one contains a collection of information from a variety of news sources; it seems to be written by a soldier. I guess the information on this one is fairly slanted, but it is a slant I happen to agree with as a result of my own independent analyses of the situation.

So, this is the world we live in - as you wrote, Drive By, the prevailing ideology is that of the ruling classes, and everyone else buys right into it - because, as you say, Polly, it's a lot easier than allowing oneself to think and see the truth.

The result: I have withdrawn from the social contact again. But that doesn't matter - I have plenty of stuff to keep my much more productively occuppied: talking to you lot, reading books, and THINKING. I get so frustrated with people who refuse to think  at this point in time, which seems to be a bit of a crisis point (to understate the severity of affairs just a trifle).

Ok, end of vent-session. In my next message I'll join in the music-sharing, which made me very happy to read (thanks, all).

sophia

[sophia]

or to quote rage against the machine.

...

Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high

Run it!

Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high
Just victims of the in-house drive-by
They say jump, you say how high

...

This makes me think of...

During my total retreat, I spent a lot of my time listening to music - predominantly Pink Floyd and The Doors. In fact, I'm listening to The Doors right now - limited edition boxed set, the CD 'Without A Safety Net'. On the first track of this CD, Morrison shouts abuse at the audience - a quote from the book that comes with the set:

"Opening this set is a live recording of 'Five to One', done in Miami in 1969, and it may stand your hairs on end. Jim Morrison's voice is a shock: not the soft, throaty, mellifluous tones of the studio recordings, but a bawdy, overbearing, crazed and almost certainly drunken voice.

... He sees through us all and he stops the music to say what he thinks of us:
   'You're all a bunch of fuckin' idiots! Lettin' people tell you what you're gonna do! Lettin' people push you around! How long do you think it's gonna last?! How long are you gonna let it go on?! Maybe you like it! Maybe you like being pushed around! Maybe you love it! Maybe you love gettin' your face stuck in the shit! You love it, dontchya?! You are all a bunch of slaves! Whata you conna do about it what are you gonna do about it whata you gonna do about it???!!!'

It's a demonic voice, not trying to be at all beautiful or seductive. The audience, as if to prove Morrison's point, applauded. But that audience is grown up now, and most of us have proved his point to a fare-thee-well, selling out every last thing we could find to sell..." (text by Michael Ventura).

And it is raw stuff - not your usual 'tamed' Morrison. It really speaks to me right now. Have any of you heard this collection?

[sophia]

I'm kinda partial to War Pigs by Black Sabbath myself. But then I was alway an optimist.

Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerers of death's construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds.
Oh lord, yeah!

And how about Pink Floyd's 'The Dogs of War' (from "A Momentary Lapse of Reason"):

Dogs of war and men of hate
With no cause we don't discriminate
Discovery is to be disowned
Our currency is flesh and bone
Hell opened up and put on sale
Gather 'round and haggle
For hard cash we will lie and deceive
Even our masters don't know the webs we weave.

One world, it's a battleground
One world, and we will smash it down
One world... one world

Invisible transfers long distance calls
Hollow laughter in marble halls
Steps have been taken a silent uproar
Has unleashed the dogs of war
You can't stop what has begun
Signed sealed they deliver oblivion
We all have a dark side to say the least
And dealing in death is the nature of the beast

One world it's a battleground
One world and we will smash it down
One world... one world

The dogs of war won't negotiate
The dogs of war won't capitulate
They will take and you will give
And you must die, so that they may live
You can knock at any door but wherever you go
You know they've been there before
Well winners can lose and tyhings can get strained
But whatever you change you know the dogs remain.

One world it's a battleground
One world and we will smash it down
One world... one world

The bold bit: the ME right now.

And no, (this is intended for my work 'mates'), I won't stop listening to the music I'm listening to and listen to pretty pop songs instead!