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Author Topic: Sun sets on resource boom as China economy shrinks  (Read 1889 times)
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The Smoking Man
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« on: January 23, 2009, 07:54:42 PM »

Sun sets on resource boom as China economy shrinks


Global steel production is down 24%.

CHINA'S once irrepressible economy has hit a wall, posing major risks to the Australian economy and to the federal budget.

Annual economic growth in China almost halved from 13 per cent in 2007 to 6.8 per cent in the year to December, the National Bureau of Statistics reported yesterday.

The growth figure is below the arbitrary 8 per cent threshold that Chinese leaders say creates risks of social instability.

Adding to concerns, Citigroup has calculated China's economy shrank 0.1 per cent in the December quarter from the September quarter — its first contraction in at least 16 years.

And some of China's top investment bankers say it may never again power the Australian economy like it did over the past five years because it will be forced to dump its reliance on construction.

The news from China has sent fresh shockwaves through the Rudd Government, with Finance Minister Lindsay Tanner describing it as bad news for Australia's growth and jobs.

"The Chinese boom that turbo-charged Australia's economy over five to seven years is receding rapidly," Mr Tanner said.

He said the Chinese numbers would probably mean the hole in budgetary revenue would be even bigger than anticipated, although he believed the budget "remains in surplus but it's getting pretty tight."

The figures underlined "the enormous challenges facing the Government" — but also reinforced its determination to do everything to support Australian growth and jobs, Mr Tanner said.

The Chinese figures coincided with more gloomy news from Australia, with a Westpac-Melbourne Institute survey revealing "recession level" fears on unemployment, and retail giant Wesfarmers following the lead of David Jones and cutting staff hours.

And profit expectations for BHP Billiton, the world's biggest miner, have been slashed sharply in response to the increasingly bleak world outlook.

In China, Frank Xu, head of mergers and acquisitions at China International Capital Corporation (CICC), said 2008 was likely to mark the all-time peak of China's appetite for Australia's key resources, particularly iron ore.

He said the resources boom, which inflated Australian commodities export prices by 150 per cent over five years, was driven by China's unsustainable growth in exports and building of factories and infrastructure.

"If you look at each one of those drivers they're going to decline," he told The Age in a rare interview.

"The part that was not sustainable was the investment that goes into producing capacity for more steel companies, more cement plants, more equipment manufacturing, more power generators, because if you don't have demand for the output then these plants are going to be wasted," he said.

Mr Xu, who advises most of China's giant resource and heavy industry companies, said it was "physically inconceivable" that China would return to the resource consumption rates of the past.

"We simply don't have enough land, we don't have enough clean air to support such growth, at some point it has to slow down and even decline in absolute terms," he said.

The Australian economy has in recent years been propelled largely by coal and iron ore, both of which depend on the steel mills of north-east Asia. Figures from the World Steel Association show global production collapsed 24 per cent in December from a year earlier.

China led the industrial downturn, throwing tens of millions of people out of work and generating huge social and political stresses.

But Australia's other top two export markets, Japan and South Korea, are now in even worse shape, with figures yesterday showing South Korean GDP contracted 5.4 per cent in the December quarter and Japanese exports plunged by an all-time record 35 per cent in December from a year earlier.

China looks likely to be the first country to stabilise its heavy industry sector, with the Government pledging trillions of yuan of new construction projects and leaning on banks to flood the economy with new loans.

Global steel production would have fallen 35 per cent in 2008 if not for a rebound in China.

Many analysts say the Chinese Government-led construction effort will stimulate a short term recovery but exacerbate structural economic and social imbalances.

"The moment we stabilise the growth scenario we need to accelerate reform, as in state owned enterprises, local competition, government intervention in resource allocation, liberalisation of trade, prices and private investment," said Wei Ding, head of investment banking at CICC.

CICC's dour research findings about commodities demand are in stark contrast to the long-term optimism of major mining companies and international investment banks.

But the CICC findings are similar to those stated in a new report by China's Ministry of Land and Resources. Leaders of the China Iron & Steel Association are privately even more pessimistic.

Before the release of the latest figures, Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said yesterday that China's growth projection for 2009 had fallen by $US200 billion, which meant a "massive $5 billion fall immediately in Australian exports", and so a $5 billion resulting impact on jobs.

Mr Rudd said the Government would "not sit on its hands while Australians lose their jobs, superannuation and house values. We will act to get the blood pumping around the economy again".

Asked whether the figures out of China hastened the need for another stimulus package, Mr Tanner said the Government would continue to weigh up the situation as it commenced its budget preparation.

He refused to be drawn on speculation about the possibility of tax relief being given before the legislated July 1 tax cuts. "The options that are in the mix at any time will involve either increased spending or reduced taxation," he said.
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2009, 08:53:06 AM »

you can call "sun set phenomenum" on each country's situation now
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2009, 10:17:13 AM »

The surprise is that China imagined it could weather the storm by relying upon domestic consumption.

I believe Polly made mention of that a few months ago.

Unfortunately, the laying off of workers has just devastated the domestic market as well.
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2009, 11:21:44 AM »

 Cheesy You will be surprised Smokie, I believe China will bottom out first of all countries by the end of this year.  However to maintain export competiveness and maintain employment, RMB will continue to be artificially low (Read: Obama can do nothing about it).  In this financial tsunami, the one left standing will be king 剩者為王.

While China may experience mild inflation within the country, the rest of the world will suffer galloping inflation. 

By the way gold just rose USD42 last night to nearly USD 900.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 11:39:08 AM by Polly » Logged

Smiley Please join our forum, we are nice people.  Smokie is stationed in China, Art is Irish, Drive By is Aussie, Leon is from somewhere and Shan and I are Chinese.  We were mostly dissidents of another forum, that's how we met.  Truth interests us.  Hope to meet you soon Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2009, 01:30:44 PM »

Only one problem with that theory ... and I'd believe your theory of it wasn't for this ...

All those Mom 'n Pop investors in China who are getting burned while they believed the stock market could only go up.

They are having their savings wiped out as we speak.

Then there are all the dishonest folk at party level who will absorb most if not all of any bailout offered by the government... like they do any funds relinquished by the central government in compensation.
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2009, 01:33:56 PM »

Don't believe me??? Think of Mr. and Mrs. He in this Aussie story: http://chinathetimes.com/forum/index.php/topic,2955.msg15730.html

Do you think they understand the stock market???
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« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2009, 04:06:39 PM »

What?

Smokie you have been back to Canada , why are you still interested in CHINA issues ? any news from Canada or USA ?
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2009, 05:15:39 PM »

How many Chinese in the mainland invest in the stock market?  How much have they invested in average? 

Consumer sales was up 13% yoy yesterday.  As soon as they see the RMB 4 trillion injection into infrascture, RMB700 billion in health care, and much more to come as promised by the government, they start spending.
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2009, 06:05:18 PM »

LOL ... You missed what I said.

And how do you keep local party members from reaching into the cash and pocketing it???

Quote
Party boss lashes out at cadres over corruption
In a rare outburst, Guangdong Party chief Wang Yang publicly criticized provincial officials for failing to meet the challenges of the current economic crisis, the South China Morning Post reported, citing an article in the Guangzhou Daily. Wang lambasted officials for corruption, excessive red tape and distancing themselves from the masses. Wang said that only a marked improvement in the quality of public service and in the conduct of public servants could restore confidence and save Guangdong's economy from sinking further. "It will be too late to repent if we lose our ruling status," Wang said. Wang has previously exhorted cadres to "liberate their minds" and be more innovative and less greedy. Provincial party discipline chief Zhu Mingguo said severe penalties would be imposed for excessive spending by public officials. Last year approximately 384 cadres in Guangzhou were charged with corruption.
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2009, 06:16:59 PM »

What?

Smokie you have been back to Canada , why are you still interested in CHINA issues ? any news from Canada or USA ?

I have always posted about China.

Driveby and I met on Shanghai-ed about 8 years ago when I was living in the UK and working in Germany.

He was in China at the time.

Now he's in Oz and we still post about China.

You see, this is the position you inherit since becoming the world's factory.

For example, I bought a hooded sweatshirt, a toolbox and pair of pliers yesterday ... all of them were made in China. This was just after I went out with my Chinese friend and ate Dim Sum.

1/8th of the population of Toronto is Chinese, my dear. After the whites, they are the most visible minority in Toronto.
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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2009, 06:44:52 PM »

A long time ago, I also warned that if the Republicans were chucked out of office, the democrats would not be kind to China:

Quote
WTO to rule on China trade dispute with US
The World Trade Organization (WTO) has agreed to rule on a dispute launched by China over US curbs on imports of steel pipes, tires and woven sacks, the Financial Times reported. This is the first time China has initiated a dispute panel at the WTO since joining in 2001. The case involves four sets of parallel anti-dumping and anti-subsidy duties imposed by the US on two types of steel pipe, pneumatic off-road tires and laminated woven sacks. Beijing is particularly angry about the 2007 change in the US' methodology for investigating subsidies, which has lead to the levying of duties against Chinese businesses. The US classifies China as a "non-market economy" and had previously only levied duties against its companies for anti-dumping violations. President Barack Obama's administration has pledged to take a tough line against allegedly unfair trade practices.

Quote
Obama pick says China manipulating currency
The man US President Barack Obama has tapped to be Treasury secretary told senators the Obama administration believes China is manipulating its currency, the New York Times reported. Timothy Geithner made the comments in writing to the Senate Finance Committee before it voted to recommend that the Senate confirm him. "President Obama backed by the conclusions of a broad range of economists believes that China is manipulating its currency," he wrote. He stopped short of charging China with intentional currency manipulation to gain a trade advantage. It was unclear whether Geithner was signaling a desire in the Obama administration to make a legal finding that China is engaging in currency manipulation. A 20-year-old law requires the administration to report on the issue to Congress this spring.
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2009, 07:37:56 PM »

China Jittery About Obama Amid Signs of Harder Line
By MARK LANDLER

WASHINGTON — Whether it was a shot across the bow or a simple restatement of his boss’s views, Timothy F. Geithner’s assertion that China “manipulates” its currency has complicated a crucial front in President Obama’s efforts to improve America’s relations with the world.

China experts here said there were several other signs that the Obama administration could take a harder line toward Beijing, including Mr. Obama’s emphasis on climate change and the environment in trade negotiations and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton’s focus on human rights.

The Chinese Ministry of Commerce responded tartly to the charge by Mr. Geithner, Mr. Obama’s nominee for Treasury secretary. “Directing unsubstantiated criticism at China on the exchange-rate issue will only help U.S. protectionism and will not help towards a real solution to the issue,” the ministry said late on Friday in a statement to Agence France-Presse.

China starts off on weaker footing with Mr. Obama than it did with his predecessor, George W. Bush. Mr. Bush and his last Treasury secretary, Henry M. Paulson Jr., cultivated Chinese leaders and refused to call Beijing a manipulator. Mr. Obama has little personal experience of China, and lacks senior advisers with a deep interest in or knowledge of the country. With the American economy in a deep slump, and China trying to ramp up its exports to cushion a sharp slowdown there, experts worry that trade relations between the countries could deteriorate.

If the United States repairs its image in many parts of the world, that could make it harder for the Chinese to present themselves as an alternative to American influence in Asia, Africa, and elsewhere.

“The Chinese are probably one of the few people in the world who were sorry to see President Bush go, and are nervous about his successor,” said Kenneth G. Lieberthal, a visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution who worked on China policy for the Clinton administration.

“They saw the Inaugural Address as having some uncomfortable elements for them,” Mr. Lieberthal said. “They are uneasy about Hillary Clinton. She has, in their assessment, not been a friend of China.”

The Chinese news media played down the significance of Mr. Geithner’s remarks, which were made in writing to the Senate Finance Committee as part of the confirmation process.

Rather than dwell on or analyze the reference to China’s currency, the Chinese official newspaper, The People’s Daily, quoted Mr. Geithner as saying that the currency manipulation issue would take a back seat to working with China to alleviate the global financial crisis. The headline said, “U.S. Treasury secretary-designate vows to deepen U.S.-China economic ties.”

American experts agree that the United States will have to work closely with China to engineer a global recovery, and the two countries have each embarked on costly programs to stimulate their economies. The Obama administration will also depend on China to continue buying Treasury bills and other government debt to finance its $825 billion recovery package.

Yet several things could conspire to spoil that cooperation. The Treasury must decide later in the spring whether to label China a currency manipulator, under a law that requires the administration to report to Congress twice a year on the exchange rate practices of trading partners.

In his written response, Mr. Geithner appeared to leave the administration plenty of wiggle room. “The question is how and when to broach the subject in order to do more good than harm,” he said.

But as a candidate, Mr. Obama took a tough line on China’s practices, saying that Beijing pegged its currency at an artificially low rate and pledging to use diplomatic means to force a change.

“This is not good for American firms and workers, not good for the world, and ultimately likely to produce inflation problems in China itself,” Mr. Obama said in a campaign essay for the American Chamber of Commerce in China.

Advocates for closer ties said they worried that unless the administration developed an overall framework for the relationship, individual events like the Treasury report could dictate the atmosphere.

It is not clear that such a framework exists. Mrs. Clinton was careful to steer clear of currency issues in her testimony to the Senate. In that testimony, she demurred on the question of whether the Obama administration would continue the “strategic economic dialogue,” a semiannual meeting on economic issues between the two countries that was led by Mr. Paulson.

Mrs. Clinton does not have the same extensive history with China that she has had with other countries. She is best known there for a speech she gave in 1995 in Beijing about women’s rights, and some China experts said they worried that her positions on trade and human rights could be a problem. Mr. Obama’s focus on energy and climate change, experts said, could cut both ways. If China and the United States could find ways to cooperate on stemming the growth of greenhouse gases, it could become the cornerstone of the relationship. If not, it could be dangerously disruptive.

Nicholas R. Lardy, an expert on the Chinese economy at the Peterson Institute of International Economics in Washington, said the financial crisis had upended many of the assumptions about the relationship.

China’s currency, he noted, has increased in value in recent months because it is pegged to the dollar, which has risen as investors fled to safe investments. China’s trade surplus with the United States has stopped growing, as American consumers stop buying so many Chinese imports.

C. Fred Bergsten, the Peterson institute’s director, said Mr. Geithner had another target in mind with his remark.

“It was a shot across the bow of Congress,” he said. “The administration is saying, ‘We will be tougher on the Chinese on trade, so you don’t need to pass protectionist legislation.’ ”

Edward Wong contributed reporting from Beijing.
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2009, 08:57:32 PM »

LOL ... You missed what I said.

And how do you keep local party members from reaching into the cash and pocketing it???

Quote
Party boss lashes out at cadres over corruption
In a rare outburst, Guangdong Party chief Wang Yang publicly criticized provincial officials for failing to meet the challenges of the current economic crisis, the South China Morning Post reported, citing an article in the Guangzhou Daily. Wang lambasted officials for corruption, excessive red tape and distancing themselves from the masses. Wang said that only a marked improvement in the quality of public service and in the conduct of public servants could restore confidence and save Guangdong's economy from sinking further. "It will be too late to repent if we lose our ruling status," Wang said. Wang has previously exhorted cadres to "liberate their minds" and be more innovative and less greedy. Provincial party discipline chief Zhu Mingguo said severe penalties would be imposed for excessive spending by public officials. Last year approximately 384 cadres in Guangzhou were charged with corruption.

Grin Fear not, one of the most notoriously corrupted official of China is being captured and charged...

A number of other big officials have also fallen off their horses, the vengence is slow but surely.
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Smiley Please join our forum, we are nice people.  Smokie is stationed in China, Art is Irish, Drive By is Aussie, Leon is from somewhere and Shan and I are Chinese.  We were mostly dissidents of another forum, that's how we met.  Truth interests us.  Hope to meet you soon Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2009, 09:00:11 PM »

A long time ago, I also warned that if the Republicans were chucked out of office, the democrats would not be kind to China:

Quote
WTO to rule on China trade dispute with US
The World Trade Organization (WTO) has agreed to rule on a dispute launched by China over US curbs on imports of steel pipes, tires and woven sacks, the Financial Times reported. This is the first time China has initiated a dispute panel at the WTO since joining in 2001. The case involves four sets of parallel anti-dumping and anti-subsidy duties imposed by the US on two types of steel pipe, pneumatic off-road tires and laminated woven sacks. Beijing is particularly angry about the 2007 change in the US' methodology for investigating subsidies, which has lead to the levying of duties against Chinese businesses. The US classifies China as a "non-market economy" and had previously only levied duties against its companies for anti-dumping violations. President Barack Obama's administration has pledged to take a tough line against allegedly unfair trade practices.

Quote
Obama pick says China manipulating currency
The man US President Barack Obama has tapped to be Treasury secretary told senators the Obama administration believes China is manipulating its currency, the New York Times reported. Timothy Geithner made the comments in writing to the Senate Finance Committee before it voted to recommend that the Senate confirm him. "President Obama backed by the conclusions of a broad range of economists believes that China is manipulating its currency," he wrote. He stopped short of charging China with intentional currency manipulation to gain a trade advantage. It was unclear whether Geithner was signaling a desire in the Obama administration to make a legal finding that China is engaging in currency manipulation. A 20-year-old law requires the administration to report on the issue to Congress this spring.

The Dem may be hard, but China is hardER.

As soon as the unsworn Treasurer described China as a currency manupulator, massive T Bills were sold until the prices plunged.

Just testing each other's bottom line I suppose Cheesy
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Smiley Please join our forum, we are nice people.  Smokie is stationed in China, Art is Irish, Drive By is Aussie, Leon is from somewhere and Shan and I are Chinese.  We were mostly dissidents of another forum, that's how we met.  Truth interests us.  Hope to meet you soon Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2009, 10:15:02 PM »

Grin Fear not, one of the most notoriously corrupted official of China is being captured and charged...

A number of other big officials have also fallen off their horses, the vengence is slow but surely.
There is a problem with that theory too.

Only those in the cadre that are opposed to the current head get nailed.

Since the majority put him into place, those in the majority with their hands in the till don't get touched.
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smoker Before you criticize a man, walk a mile in his shoes. That way, if he gets angry, he's a mile away and barefoot.
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